Google

Wednesday, October 19, 2005

Solus Christus

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Colossians 1:13-18

Christ is the sole meaning of the Bible and the sole reason that the Church exists. From the moment that Adam and Eve sinned we see in Scripture that Christ was coming to redeem. The Covenant promise God makes with Abraham sees its fulfillment in Christ. (John 8:56) Christ is the fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 5:17-18) Christ is the King that is sitting on David's throne forever (2 Samuel 7:13) Christ is the fulfiller of making God our God and we his people (Jer 31:33, Ezek 37:27, 2Cor 6:16, Heb 8:10) Christ is the bringer of the Kingdom of God, the 2nd Adam, the Son of God. To Him is ascribed, all power, glory, and majesty forever. He has set us free from our bondage by taking our sins upon his back and conquering sin and death at that moment once and for all. He is our High Priest, but he only had to make one sacrifice not continual like the priests of old, or as some practice today. (Heb 9:23-28) Christ alone is our mediator. NO ONE ELSE! Peter himself declares this (Acts 4:11) In Hebrews 7:23-28 we see that Christ intercedes on our behalf to the Father, who else do we need! No man or woman, saint or sinner, could bring us better intercession than Christ Alone. All believers approach the Lord as we are now his people and he is our God (1Peter 2:4-10) Finally, He alone is whom, we the Church, his bride are founded upon. The bedrock of the Church is not in man or tradition (t or T) but alone in Christ the Son of the Living God (Matt. 16:16-18). May all glory be to Jesus our Lord and Savior alone, with no one does he share his title, aparabatos.
Soli Deo Gloria!

31 Comments:

At 5:52 PM, Blogger Doug Poindexter said...

I would agree with almost everything in your post. The only thing I would disagree with is this:
In Hebrews 7:23-28 we see that Christ intercedes on our behalf to the Father, who else do we need! No man or woman, saint or sinner, could bring us better intercession than Christ Alone. Does this mean you don't think believers should pray for one another? Do you pray for anyone or ask anyone to pray for you? Of course! This is no way diminishes Christ's role as sole mediator; we are members of Christ and therefore intercessors (subordinate mediators). The saints in heaven are no different. The communion of saints means that we are one family in heaven and on earth and death does not separate us. Baptism makes us priests to God (1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 20:6) and as priests we may interecede on behalf of one another.
All are alive to God in Jesus Christ, who is not the God of the dead but of the living (Mt 22:32; Mk 12:27; Lk 20:38) The book of Revelation describes the angels and saints in heaven being concerned in the affairs of the saints on earth and presenting their prayers before the throne of God (Rev. 5:8; 6:9-11; 8:3-4) James writes that "the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." How much more efficacious are the prayers of the saints in heaven before the very throne of God, whose righteousness has been perfected!
In Christ.

 
At 7:48 PM, Blogger Refmergant said...

We are not in disagreement on some of your point. I am not contending that we cannot pray for one another. I am saying that Christ is our sole intercessor to the Father, this does not mean we cannot pray for one another. As for the Book of Revelation quotes we will probably just have to agree to disagree. I am quite sure your and my interpretation of saints, the dating of the book, date of the events and whether baptism is even referred to in your 20:6 reference are not the same. A discussion on that subject would take us back to the last topic, which I will glady take up again if you like, after the next three topics.

 
At 7:58 PM, Anonymous daniel said...

Ref,
you're setting up a misrepresentation of Church teaching. You said, "I am saying that Christ is our sole intercessor to the Father." Thats what we're saying too. It is not necessary to ask saints on earth or in heaven to pray for; only beneficial (as you admit to if you've ever asked anyone to pray for you. If it were not beneficial, why ask anyone to pray for you?).

 
At 10:13 PM, Blogger Refmergant said...

I think we are just having some miscommunication due to the fact this is a blog, not an in person conversation. I did not say that people cannot pray and intercede for one another by praying to Christ for someone else. I am stating that Christ is the only one who intercedes for all of us no matter who is praying for what or whom... to the Father.

Hebrews 7:23-25

23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Hopefully this clears up the miscommunication, I don't think we were disagreeing on the point of Christians interceding for others in prayer.

 
At 10:36 PM, Blogger Doug Poindexter said...

OK, if you put it that way, there is nothing about your post that I would disagree with as a Catholic. In fact, only two of the "Five Solas of the Reformation" are in opposition to Catholic teaching; namely, sola fide and sola scriptura.
Thank you.

 
At 10:40 PM, Anonymous daniel said...

Ref,
thanks for clearing it up. Catholics agree with you. Christ is indeed the sole mediator, and all prayer to the Father must go through Him. He is the only way we can address the Father.
God bless.

 
At 10:47 PM, Anonymous daniel said...

I should more clearly articulate my last post: When I say Christ is the only way we can pray to the Father, I mean only by His eternal priesthood can we have peace with the Father and talk to Him. Christ is, in the broad sense, the One mediator between God and man. Of course this does not rule out subordinant mediation, such as our previous example of people praying for one another. When I pray for someone, I am techinally mediating between them and God. But my mediation does not bypass Christ; rather it is subordinant to His mediation and only possible because of His mediation. This is the same thing we believe about asking Mary to pray for us or asking other people in heaven to pray for us. By no means is it a way to bypass Christ. No-- it is only through Christ that they are able to intercede for us before God.

I'm writing this very quickly because I'm at work, so I trust that Doug, you will correct me if I worded something as to give a wrong impression of catholic teaching, etc.

God bless

 
At 11:06 PM, Blogger Refmergant said...

This is addressed to all three of you. Where do you get your belief that those in heaven and/or Mary is, can, or does pray for anyone now???

 
At 12:35 AM, Blogger Doug Poindexter said...

This is addressed to all three of you. Where do you get your belief that those in heaven and/or Mary is, can, or does pray for anyone now???
I briefly addressed this in my first comment. My question to you is, why would you think they do not? In the Apostles' Creed, we profess to believe in the "the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints." What does the term "communion of saints" mean? Well, it means we have communion "in holy things" when we together share in the feast of the Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord in the Eucharist, and it also means communion "among holy persons." The saints in heaven and on earth form one family in Jesus Christ (Eph. 3:14,15) and not even death can separate us from the love of Christ. If we are all branches of the same vine, Jesus, death has no power over us. All are alive to God (Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38). The saints in heaven have received the beatific vision, that is, they see God face to face in all of His glory and holiness. In heaven we are finally free from every evil desire, every attachment to sin, for we see everything from God's perspective. "Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" and "Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face." (1 Jn 3:2; 1 Cor. 13:12) The saints in heaven, therefore even more alive in Christ than we are on earth. They are constantly offering up petition before the throne of God. I think the verses I cited in my earlier comment from Revelation (which contains descriptions of heaven) should be enough to demonstrate that the saints can and do present our prayers before God and are concerned with the affairs of their brothers and sisters in Christ on earth (if you don't accept that, what can I say?)
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev. 5:8)
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:9-11)
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Rev. 8:3,4)
Oh, and don't forget that "we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses" (Heb. 12:1)! And that the Lord Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses who were "dead", though really alive to God since they are in heaven ( Matt. 17:3;Mark 9:4;Luke 9:30)!
Thank you.

 
At 12:49 AM, Blogger Doug Poindexter said...

Here's a link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
with quotations from the early Church showing intercession of the saints was practiced by the earliest Christians (proving it is not something the Catholic Church just invented later on).

 
At 12:31 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

Hello,
So, I have commented on the last two posts. (If your interested please check out my site as well, however it is not a debate forum.)And I will also join here!

When I pray, I would rather pray directly to the source, to Jesus Christ! The Spirit tells me what and how to pray and then I pray to Christ. Why would I want to pray to anyone else to have them then pray for me. I would just a soon deliver the message to my Lord and Savior myself.

I do ask other (living) saints to pray for me, expecting that they will also pray directly to Jesus Christ being lead to do so by the Spirit!
Asking others to pray for me is two fold...letting them know the things that are going on in my life and in a small way allowing them to become a blessing through prayer and receive blessings from Christ in seeing their requests answered.

Again the focus must always remain on Christ! If it is not, we become self-centered in our prayers.

Isaiah 1:12-20
"When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good;
seek justice, correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause. Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

It is all about our hearts! Are they focused on Christ or on something else. Here the nation of Israel was rebuked for their traditions because they forgot about God in their zeal to continue these traditions.

Yes the traditions point to Christ, but we must not put them above Christ. Christ was, is, and always will be the Creator of all things and is to be worshiped and praised above all else.

In Christ,

Dave

 
At 12:47 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

In the quote from Isaiah 1 you could also include verse 11.
"What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings or rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats."

 
At 3:11 PM, Blogger Pio Francis said...

mark 1:17: I'm afraid you have a faulty view of prayer. The way you describe praying for others is remarkably selfish. You might think it altruistic to say, "oh, I ask so-and-so to pray for me that they might be blessed, etc." Because, as you illustrated, you can take your petition directly to God. Consider a circumstance, however, in which you are praying for someone else. Do you really think that your prayer for another might have no affect on God? Does God turn a deaf ear to your particular prayer, because the fellow you're praying for has already prayed? Are you really only praying for that person because you want something out of it? Did St Paul, the other Apostles, and even Jesus Christ Himself, only pray for others so that they might receive graces? Did they not think that their prayers might work for the good of those for whom they were praying, and for whom they are praying still?
Your evasion of the petitions of the Saints in Heaven on our behalf greatly belittles prayer. You really should be more careful.

By the way, I don't think that anyone will argue with you that Christ is indeed at the heart of the issue, and that we need to constantly bear Him in mind and heart when praying for ourselves, praying for others, or doing any number of other things.

And my dear separated brethren, will you please learn to distinguish between traditions and Holy Tradition?

Thank you, and God bless.

 
At 5:58 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

Joel,
You said this of my last comment:
Your comments will be in quotes:
"mark 1:17: I'm afraid you have a faulty view of prayer. The way you describe praying for others is remarkably selfish. You might think it altruistic to say, "oh, I ask so-and-so to pray for me that they might be blessed, etc." Because, as you illustrated, you can take your petition directly to God. Consider a circumstance, however, in which you are praying for someone else. Do you really think that your prayer for another might have no affect on God? Does God turn a deaf ear to your particular prayer, because the fellow you're praying for has already prayed? Are you really only praying for that person because you want something out of it?"


I never mentioned anything about why I pray for others...you would be trying to put words into my mouth so to speak. I only mentioned why I give others prayer requests and ask others to pray for me.
However...seeing as you think these are selfish reasons...I ask how is seeing someone else blessed by the LORD answering their prayers selfish?
When I pray for other, in no way am I thinking, "Oh this will be great, God will answer my prayers and I will be blessed." No! I pray for others out of genuine concern for them. I have a relationship with them just like I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Friends share things with each other...and what better friend to share with than Jesus Christ?


"Did St Paul, the other Apostles, and even Jesus Christ Himself, only pray for others so that they might receive graces? Did they not think that their prayers might work for the good of those for whom they were praying, and for whom they are praying still?"


When did I say that this was the only reason that I pray? I don't remember stating that...again you would be trying to put words into my mouth!
Also, why would anyone pray if they didn't truly believe that God would hear them and answer their prayer? If you didn't believe that, what would be the point of praying?
However, that said, Prayer is two way. We talk to God, and if we patiently wait, God speaks to us also. And before you take that the wrong way, No, not verbally...but God does answer prayer according to His perfect will!


"Your evasion of the petitions of the Saints in Heaven on our behalf greatly belittles prayer. You really should be more careful."


I don't see how taking my petitions to Jesus Christ "Our Only Mediator" (1 Tim 2:5; Heb 9:15, 12:24) belittles my prayer at all? Christ is my Mediator and no one else!


"By the way, I don't think that anyone will argue with you that Christ is indeed at the heart of the issue, and that we need to constantly bear Him in mind and heart when praying for ourselves, praying for others, or doing any number of other things."


It is my fear that by praying to anyone but Christ, one my loose their focus and forget who the Only Mediator is!


"And my dear separated brethren, will you please learn to distinguish between traditions and Holy Tradition?"


I understand why you would call me a "separated brethren". However, just as the term "Roman" is offensive to you the term "separated brethren" is also offensive to me. You see if the both of us confess Christ...well I believe that Paul puts it best in Romans 10:9-13
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.""

The same could be said about any Protestant or Roman Catholic or anyone else for that matter who profess Christ as LORD and Savior. In Christ we are all the same...His name will be written on our foreheads. Anyone who is "Born Again" that is "Born of the Spirit of God" is a Saint in the Army of Christ. We are not separated like you like to quote what your late pope said of protestants.

Also, the Traditions in the quote from Isaiah...those are Holy Traditions...The were commanded by God. They were a part of the Covenant between Israel and God...yet in Isaiah, God was detested by them!
I don't see anywhere in all of Scripture, where God commands us to pray to those who have died so that they can pray for us.

Christ must be at the center of our lives...if He is not High and lifted up in our lives...how do we bring Honor and Glory to Him? The answer is we don't, we become like Satan. We are stealing God's Glory.
I choose to pray directly to Christ (the Only Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5). I will not intentionally steal or give His Glory to another! I just wont do it!


"Thank you, and God bless."

In Christ,

David

 
At 7:45 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

Just ran across this passage of Scripture today.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14
Abominable Practices
"When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a wizard or a necromancer, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this."

There was one word in there that really caught my attention...Necromancer! Which means?
"one who interrogates the dead," as the word literally
means, with the view of discovering the secrets of futurity.

Sounds like praying to the dead to me?

1 Thessalonians 5:22 says, "Abstain (Avoid) from every form (likeness) of evil."
Avoid every likeness of evil?

I choose to avoid Praying to the "Dead" Saints (if they are in Christ, they are alive) because of these verses from the Word of God.

In Christ,

David

 
At 12:11 AM, Anonymous daniel said...

Hey David.
Luckily, Christians believe in an afterlife, so there's no worry about praying to dead believers of Christ, for they are with Him in heaven, praying on our behalf.

It might save you a lot of posting if you read some of what the Church teaches. The Catechism is available online, completely free.

God bless.

 
At 12:14 AM, Anonymous daniel said...

David,
Because Christians believe in an afterlife, there's no worry about praying to dead believers of Christ, for they are with Him in heaven, praying on our behalf. There is no such thing as a dead Christian (assuming he or she was truly Christian).

It might save you a lot of posting if you read some of what the Church teaches. The Catechism is available online, completely free. We agree with you that contacting the dead is wrong. This is most certainly not what we do when we ask people in heaven to pray for us.

God bless.

 
At 12:14 AM, Anonymous daniel said...

David,
Because Christians believe in an afterlife, there's no worry about praying to dead believers of Christ, for they are with Him in heaven, praying on our behalf. There is no such thing as a dead Christian (assuming he or she was truly Christian).

It might save you a lot of posting if you read some of what the Church teaches. The Catechism is available online, completely free. We agree with you that contacting the dead is wrong. This is most certainly not what we do when we ask people in heaven to pray for us.

God bless.

 
At 12:15 AM, Anonymous daniel said...

sorry about the repeat comments, i didnt think it went through the first two times.

 
At 2:11 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

Daniel,
You said, "David,
Because Christians believe in an afterlife, there's no worry about praying to dead believers of Christ, for they are with Him in heaven, praying on our behalf. There is no such thing as a dead Christian (assuming he or she was truly Christian)."

All souls are eternal! They will either spend eternity with God, or apart from God. The terms "medium" and "necromancer" are in reference to a human being in contact with the soul of a human who has passed on from this life into the next. Whether they are with Christ or Not, we are told that praying to those who are "physically dead" not "spiritually dead" (for the words in the original Hebrew mean "physical death" is an abomination unto the LORD. Therefore, I choose only to pray directly to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, Jesus Christ and to no other.

"It might save you a lot of posting if you read some of what the Church teaches. The Catechism is available online, completely free. We agree with you that contacting the dead is wrong. This is most certainly not what we do when we ask people in heaven to pray for us."

Sorry if this sounds harsh:
I grew up in the Lutheran Tradition...I studied the Lutheran Catechism for many years and thought..."I am a good Christian...I know what Luther says about the Bible." However over the last 6 years of my life, I have found that there are mistakes in the thinking of man! Not everything Luther said in his Catechism is Biblical. It is mearly a commentary on the Bible!
It is the same with any Catechism! It was written by man, Not God! It is mearly a commentary on the Bible. If a commentary contredicts the Bible...I will always side with the Bible.
I will put absolutely no faith in man! Not one Bit!
I will put all of my faith in Jesus Christ and His Word! And His ability to reveal its Truth to me personally, not having to depend on anyone else to tell me what the Bible is saying. God is Almighty, He is Big enough to do that!

If I may be so bold:
Paul makes it a point to tell his younger brothers to exhort and challange...if I may I would like to pose a challange:
Instead of being Zealous to defend a commentary...we should all daily study the Word of God with a concordance and a Greek and Hebrew Dictionary...no other man writen commentaries. Before beginning our daily study of Gods Holy Word, let us pray that God would reveal to us the True meaning of what He has written to us.
We should all try it and see what happens? I would suggest starting with the book of Romans for 1 month. Really digging deep, reseaching what each original Greek word means and going slowly studying phrase by phrase.

If anyone would like to join me I will be posting on this for the next month at my site, www.getoutoftheboat.blogspot.com
This will start on Monday Nov 1st. Most Saturdays and Every Sunday I will not post.
So join me if you would like!

"God bless."

You also,

In Christ,

David

 
At 1:44 AM, Anonymous daniel said...

David,
I suggested that you read the Catechism to see what the Church says she believes, not because it is on par with Scripture. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about the Catholic faith, so I was only saying it'd be a good idea to check an official Catholic source to see if the Church actually teaches what you believe her to teach.

The rest of your response goes back to the whole issue of Sola Scriptura, which has been dealt with (and refuted, it seems, as not one Protestant can provide even one Scripture passage that states Scripture is the sole authority) on another post.

Just for the record, I wasn't always an active Catholic. In fact, I was actively anti-Catholic. However, through reading the Scriptures and studying Church history, I came to see that the church in Acts that so many Protestants long for actually still exists-- in the Catholic Church! I desire so strongly for you to see this too! Otherwise, I wouldn't care to discuss these topics.

On a side note, history has proven that it's a bad idea that one only has to read Scripture and he will be lead into all Truth. Do you realize that tens of thousands of protestant denominations claim to be following the Bible alone, and also claim to have the most accurate interpretation and furthermore claim the Holy Spirit led them to their conclusion?

After all, how do you know that your interpretation isn't wrong and the Lutheran's is right? Of course you'll say "Because I prayed about it and the Spirit led me to this belief." But that's what the Lutheran sincerely believes too! You see, we need something more objective than feelings and "personal revelations." Like, say, history: how did the earliest Christians (the followers of the Disciples) understand certain passages and rituals? Shouldn't their interpretation carry a lot of weight, considering they learned from men who walked with Christ? Did they see communion as symbolic, or did they take Christ literally when He said "this is My Body?"

When one starts to look for answers to these questions, he does not remain protestant much longer.

I highly reccommend www.catholic.com for some early church fathers writings.

God bless.

 
At 12:37 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

Daniel,

At this point, I have one question for you:

What is the Sole, Highest Authority in your life?
What would you stand by and deffend even if everything else contradicted it?
So, yeah, what is the Highest Authority in your life?

In Christ,

David

 
At 2:37 PM, Anonymous daniel said...

The highest authority in my life is Christ. He reveals the Truth through His infallible Church, guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church contains all revealed Truth, including Scripture. Scripture is 1/2 of the Church. Apostolic Tradition is the other 1/2. The Magisterium is the infallible teaching authority of Christ's Church, which is led by the Holy Spirit to lead God's people into all Truth. I don't have to imagine a situation in which I would stand by this authority when everyone else-- including other Christians-- disagrees, because it happens on a daily basis. For example: contraception. Christ's Catholic Church is the only church on the face of the earth that still boldly proclaims that contraception is evil. All protestant churches used to teach this, until they gave into thw world one by one, starting with the Anglicans in the 1930s. It amazes me that so many Christians think contraception is ok. Especially chemical contraception, which is proven to cause about one silent early abortion per year per woman. Christian "pro-lifers" who are on the pill are actually putting their tiny unborn children at risk of being killed in their mother's womb because this Christian "pro-life" couple is on birth control. I know that's off-topic, but it's a clear example of why we need a living, breathing Authority from God.

God bless.

 
At 3:47 PM, Blogger Doug Poindexter said...

Mark,
Imagine of our American "Founding Fathers" only left us with the Constitution, but established no government with a succession of power. If every man is left to interpret the Constitution for himself, there would be total chaos, anarchy even. Imagine there is no Executive branch, no Congress, no Supreme Court, to interpret the Constitution and legislate based on the Constitution.
Protestantism IS spiritual anarchy, because every individual feels he can interpret the Bible on his own and still get the correct interpretation. This is contrary to the intent of Our Lord, who founded the Catholic Church and gave authority to the apostles and their successors (the bishops) to teach all nations.
Our highest authority is Christ, through the Church, which He gave us to be the "pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Tim. 3:15)
By the way, the Catholic Church does not and cannot place its authority above the Bible. Catholicism is the only religion that is in full conformity with the Bible's teachings (it IS a Catholic book, after all). Holy Church does, however, have the authority to teach the gospel and she alone can interpret it accurately, since she is guided by the Holy Spirit in doing so. When the Bible is understood correctly, there is no contradiction between Catholic teaching and the Bible. The Bible is based on Catholic teaching.

 
At 4:45 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

So both of you are saying that the Roman Catholic Church is in complete 100% agreeance with the Bible...
The first thing that comes to mind is the selling of indulgences? That is not Biblical nor is Purgatory...However those were taught the Roman Catholic Church.
Another thing...for this you might need to pull out your Bible and turn to Titus 1:5-16
Elders...that would be Pastors...are to be the Husband of one wife, their Children are to be believers...says nothing about being celebate (I know you will want to use Pauls teaching that it is better for one not to be wed, however, He is not speaking about Elders at that point...that would be to everyone in general. But of Elders, Paul requires that they be wed and have kids.)
Also, there is not a heirarchy in Christianity other than Christ is the head. In Christ we are all equal, an Elder is not above (actually they should come from below and lift up their flock!) anyone else. A shepherd serves his flock and protects them, in the case of an Elder/Pastor they are also teachers (same thing applies, they should come from beneith the flock and lift them up not teach for the top down, that is Christ's job). The Church doesn't exist to bring people up to God (the church is not at the same level as God), that is His job and His alone. No one will seek God unless God starts to work in their hearts. The Church exists as the Body of Christ, to serve, to honor, and to Glorify the Name that is above all other names, Jesus Christ.
One last thing, the names for the Pope, yeah, they are unbiblical!
Holy Father...Ummmm that is God the Father, Head of the Church...Yeah that's Christ, and Vicar of Christ...that would be the Holy Spirit.
These are different names for God, and no human should be claiming those titles for themselves!

This has gotten off the topic at hand...Solus Christus...I have gone over this several other times with other Roman Catholics and every thing that is sayed from a Protestant perspective is just brushed aside...It is the same arguement that was going on in the Days of Christ, Jews vs. Gentiles, except now it is Catholic vs. Protestant! Do you not believe that Christ can manifest himself to the Gentiles (Protestants)? Salvation is for all people! The fullness of Christ is within Himself! Not an organization. Christ build HIS (Himself) Church and the foundation was the confession from Peter that God gave to him that Jesus was and IS the Christ the Son of the Most High God.
The greek text makes this very clear if you would care to study it for yourself! (Petros vs. Petras).

I have said my piece and I will leave what I have said in Gods capable hands.
I thank you all for being very hospitable and it has been fun. But I must withdraw from this conversation...for I know it all to well. Both side will only but heads and nothing will change. I only pray that through it Christ has been magnified, honored, and glorified.

In Christ,

David

 
At 4:52 PM, Blogger Mark 1:17 said...

P.S. This was part of my last comment on the previous post:

The Bible that you or anyone else holds in their hands (literaly) is not Jesus Christ, However, He is the Scripture! John 1:1-5
The written word is His revelation to us.
Christ is the Living, Breathing, and Active Word of God.
The Scriptures are the Living and Active (and in a sense it is Breathing) Word of God.

A Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ. Him living in our hearts and drawing near to us. Is what allows us to understand Who He is and What He has done. We talk to Him through Pray, and He talks to us through His Word and Prayer.

If you do not believe that God can reveal things to His people, I must question your personal relationship with Him. I am not saying this as a cut on your faith, I am saying this as a concerned Brother! If God cannot talk to His people, what type of a relationship is that? It sounds like man attempting to reach God, not God comming down to man.

Again, this is not meant to be a cut. Only voicing concern out of Love. We must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. One in which He can reveal things to us through a multitude of ways. (please take a look at my site...I am just ending a long series of posts that talk about how we come to know God and How He talks to us.) And one in which we can communicate with Him as well.


In Christ,

David

Jesus Christ I agree with you is the Highest Authority in our lives! But I do not agree with you about the Institution of the Church. However the Church as Christ's Body, that I would agree with.
I say this because if the Church is Christ's body, and the Scripture is Christ, then Christ is our "Soul" authority. Christ and Christ alone....like the topic of this post!

With that I will resign from this conversation...again thank you all for being very hospitable!

In Christ,

David

 
At 1:03 AM, Anonymous daniel said...

David,
thank you for your participation as well. I'm sorry you've decided to leave the discussion, but I will not try to convince you otherwise. I will answer your concerns you raised in your most recent comments.

As far as the selling of indulgences: this is not nor was it ever an official teaching of the Church. It was an abuse carried out by individuals within the church. In fact, the Church claims that it is a sin to sell indulgences. As for the idea of indulgences in general, that stems from the power Christ gave to His Church to bind and loose (see: Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18).

Elders (presbyters, from which the term "priest" arose) are to be the husband of one wife, says the Bible? Mark, this one's just silly. This is obviously a command against sexual immorality and/or polygamy. It's certainly not a command for any elder in the church to be married. Paul would be violating that rule! What's more, Catholic priests CAN be married! Eastern rite Catholics allow married priests. Priestly celibacy is a matter of discipline, not doctrine. It can change from pope to pope and rite to rite.

I'm not really sure what your argument against a hierarchical church is about. But if you're saying that all members of Christ's body have a vital role to play-- not just priests and bishops-- we absolutely agree. Hopefully you would agree that a certain order of things is necessary for an organization to function. I bet your church has elders who have more authority to make decisions than the average joe in your church. And you have a pastor. Why does he preach and not the rest of the congregation? Because that would be chaotic and unproductive. Aside from merely common sensical reasons for having a hierarchical structure to the church, it's Scriptural! In Acts 20:17,28, Paul refers to both elders (priests) and bishops (some translations say overseers). And consider 1Cor 12.28: "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers . . ." My comment will be pages long if I type out all the Scripture passages which speak of a hierarchical church, so I will provide the references for you to look up:Eph. 4:11, Phil. 1:1, 1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7, 1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14, 1 Tim. 3:8.

And finally your last claim, that calling the pope our Holy Father, etc is wrong, as only God is Our Holy Father. There are several reasons we do this. One, it's simply a way to show our love for the pope (which just means "papa"). In Catholicism, we are much more liberal with our use of "holy." You may think it's only proper to call God holy. And, if by holy, you mean having the purity and righteousness that only God has, then I agree with you. However, we use holy more loosely. When we say holy we simply mean anything that it Godly, good, spiritual, etc. Would you think it wrong to say "Billy Graham is a holy man"? I wouldn't. We think our pope is a holy man. And he's our father in the same sens that Paul calls himself a spiritual father to his flock (in 1 Cor. 4:15 Paul writes, "I became your father in Christ Jesus"). So, put the two together and he's our holy father.
The vicar of Christ. This is more complicated because it has to do again with the fact that God gave the Church the power to act in His authority. Christ is the King and the pope is His prime minister is another way to look at it. For the full understanding, you have to go back to the Old Testament. Specifically Isaih 22, which Christ was referencing in Matt 16:19. Keys represent authority to make binding decisions. All authority of course comes ultimately from Christ, but Christ has given His church, and in a large way each pope, authority to carry out the faith with authority on earth. it is in this sense that we call the pope the vicar of Christ. You should remember that NOWHERE does the church claim the pope is acting on his own authority. The Church is infallible only through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Hope this helps. God bless.

 
At 6:28 PM, Blogger Daniel said...

Where is everyone? Where is Refmergant?

 
At 2:28 AM, Blogger job opportunitya said...

Energizing blog. It blew me away and I loved your
site. when I have the time to surf the net, i try
finding blogs as good as your site.
Once you sign on, check for my at&t conference calling blog.

 
At 1:12 PM, Blogger Mr JaguarDriver said...

Hi Refmergant love your blog. I came across it while looking for prayer for life. I know Solus Christus is not an exact match but thanks for the read. I'll get on with my search for prayer for life stuff and will visit again sometime. Take Care

 
At 9:28 PM, Blogger Mysticman said...

How ya doing Refmergant, Hope you are having a good day. Your Solus Christus site is most interesting. I was looking for how to pray related information when I came across it. Thanks for the read. I have a site that may interest you come and visit sometime, how to pray thanks again, take care.

 

Post a Comment

<< Home